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Thread: Time to break a few records

  1. #31
    Contributing Sponsor LETZRIDE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trb0355 View Post
    Have you ever dynoed it? It would be interesting to see where the power peak is and if a higher stall converter would put it in the 12's. Plus if you could lock the converter and eliminate slippage on the top end, it would be a win/win situation. I dont recall if HP Tuners can manually lock the V6's TCC very reliably but what about hard wiring it? My old Buick GN would jump 2/10th's and 2 mph with the TCC locked in 2nd and 3rd gear. Huge difference in efficiency.

    1.84 is getting serious but it should go 1.6xxx id think and combined with the average 2/10 TCC benefit, your gonna be darn close to the 12 second zone by managing the power you currently have.

    My hot air 84 GN would do a 1.64 60 ft and ran a [email protected] just to give you an idea where your numbers land.
    I don't think that the lighter rims/tires will drop .5 seconds off the car, but I do think they will make a difference.

    Just as a good read: http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-tires-tested

    They did a test on the VW with heavier tires, the one where the tires are 48lbs (or would be 32lbs heavier total with all 4 tires) They lost a 0.4 seconds in 0-100mph, and 0.1 in the 1/4 mile (but the VW can only hit 86mph in the 1/4)

    anyways, I can see changes that have to be made. I was pretty lean and I think I can pull some power back there.

    The leaness has me a little puzzled, even leaving the strip I gave it a romp from 45-60mph and it seemed lean...back home here today it seems fine. I wonder if the slight altitude change was enough to lean me out.

    as for the 6mph loss in the 8th, there have been soo many factors since I was last out it's rediculous.

    Changes

    - Ford 8.8 rear end which is heavier
    - went from 3.90 gears to 4.10 (try and negate the heavyness of the rear end)
    - New cam 230/240 .512/.512 113LSA...bigger than the previous ARH cam but who knows the power potential?
    - fresh motor (probably has 15,000-20,000 km on it if that now)
    - different rims/radials (heavier)
    - Refreshed 4l60e trans in with a shift kit (and I am very happy with the shifts, no issues like before)
    - rebuilt the 3200 TCI stall (who knows if that changed anything from the way it was before
    - upped compression from about 9:8:1 to 9:9:1
    - car was lowered up front with Qa1 suspension, and Qa1 shocks out back with stock springs

    so many things changed, some may have effected the car negatively, some positively. It's hard to say when so many changes happen all at once.

    She ran 13.6 on the ARH cam the day I blew the motor, and I was getting KR that was pulling timing.

    I know she has more in it with the new setup, just need to work out the bugs.

    I'll post the vids when I get them. Even one of the other guys on CV6 that came out and filmed told me that the car didn't seem to lift the front end the same way as it did 2 years ago. He said even though the 60's were better it looked to be launching softer. It certainly felt as if there was no squat to me (again that could be the Qa1's out back keeping the car more level)

    lots to play around with and address.

    As for being dynoed yes, I dynoed 239rwhp.

    I'll post the dyno graph up when I get the videos

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  3. #32
    Contributing Sponsor LETZRIDE's Avatar
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    Here ya go, first video I got, it's the 13.43 run. Nothing special, hopefully the video from the other angle will show the launch a little better. To me it looks soft here.


  4. #33
    Full Throttle caspernicus's Avatar
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    Did you ever dyno the abbott cam? It'd be interesting to see both curves on the same graph.


    How many rpm does it drop after a shift? And what rpm are you shifting at?
    Last edited by caspernicus; 10-14-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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  5. #34
    Contributing Sponsor LETZRIDE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caspernicus View Post
    Did you ever dyno the abbott cam? It'd be interesting to see both curves on the same graph.


    How many rpm does it drop after a shift? And what rpm are you shifting at?
    Never dynoed the abbott cam so I am not sure the difference.

    What do you mean by how many rpm does it drop? With the Stall I never fall below 4900rpm on a shift.

    The first 2 runs shifted at 5800rpm, the last run (13.43) I bumped it up to 6300rpm (I had my laptop charger and was able to borrow a wall outlet for 2 quick minutes to make the change)

    The cam keeps making power up top, we never topped it out at the dyno... We only spun it to 6000rpm because we were worried about spinning a bearing.

    edit: this was with the converter unlocked. Someone mentioned locking the converter down the track as well, but I have heard that you are likely to grenade your stall like that unless you have one that is meant to lock up under WOT

    dyno chart.jpg
    Last edited by LETZRIDE; 10-14-2012 at 09:33 PM.

  6. #35
    Full Throttle Extreme! trb0355's Avatar
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    I dont know how the 4l60 acts with a WOT lockup but one things for sure, the newer converters can take the abuse a lot better than the old ones. New trannys use a PWM lockup scenario which means the lockup friction material is carbon fiber as opposed to standars friction material on the old stuff. It can slip forever and not get too burnt up.

    I tried lockup strategy in my tune attempting lockup at 90 mph and above. A few times i felt it lockup hard but then it seems it didnt do it anymore. Normal driving still had lockup and the fluid was clean so i dont think the electronics are that great. I bet it could be hard wired to bypass PCM controls and put on a switch.

    A N/A buildup needs every advantage to be fast and its worth digging deeper to use the TCC. You wont find ANY converter no matter what the price that doesnt slip at least 5% under power and most are 10 to 15% slippage. My budget S-10 stall was loose as hell and would have benefitted from a TCC lock for sure. I went with a manual trans so i never optimized the auto.

    Next time you datalog a 1/4 mile run, look at RPM vs actual MPH on your timeslip and do the math against tire size and rear gear. I bet you will find things are about 400 rpm's higher than the math says.

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  7. #36
    Full Throttle Extreme! trb0355's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LETZRIDE View Post
    Never dynoed the abbott cam so I am not sure the difference.

    What do you mean by how many rpm does it drop? With the Stall I never fall below 4900rpm on a shift.

    The first 2 runs shifted at 5800rpm, the last run (13.43) I bumped it up to 6300rpm (I had my laptop charger and was able to borrow a wall outlet for 2 quick minutes to make the change)

    The cam keeps making power up top, we never topped it out at the dyno... We only spun it to 6000rpm because we were worried about spinning a bearing.

    edit: this was with the converter unlocked. Someone mentioned locking the converter down the track as well, but I have heard that you are likely to grenade your stall like that unless you have one that is meant to lock up under WOT

    dyno chart.jpg
    You need to look at the dyno graph and see where peak torque and Hp are at and calculate the fallback RPM on each shift to figure out what the optimum shift point will be. It will be a higher RPM out of first due to the colossal reduction coming out of a shitty 3.06 to 1 first ratio compared to the 2-3 shift. The 4l60 gear spread is not the best for racing and that gearset was designed in 1983 to make a gutless 305 truck or LG4 camaro 'feel" good off the line and win over potential buyers on their first test drive. LOL

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  8. #37
    Contributing Sponsor LETZRIDE's Avatar
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    I don't doubt that, I hold the throttle a tad after the 1/4 mile mark. Hitting 106mph I'm turning about 6200-6300rpm

  9. #38
    Full Throttle Extreme! trb0355's Avatar
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    How tall are the tires? If i assume the average 25.5 inch tire these things usually run, 6300 rpm with a 4.10 rear would be 116 mph You barely made 100 mph Thats in the ballpark of 13% slip. Yikes! If your tires are even taller than that, your really hurtin. The average converter slip usually makes the trap RPM read one whole gear step higher than real life. Like 4.10 gears trap what a 4.56 set would RPM at. Unless you run a manual trans of course! It a shitload more slip than most people realize and the TCC lockup is the best way to have your cake and eat it too.

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  10. #39
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    tire was a 275/40/17 so it is a 25.7 tall tire.

    I'm skeptical still about locking that converter. I'll be reading a lot more on that this winter though. I know a converter can make or break you. 13% slip sounds about right to me. I thought most converters were up around there.

  11. #40
    Newbie Dave3500Z's Avatar
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    I tried locking up my converter at about 75 MPH on the strip, it slowed me down. if you have a way of locking it up based on RPM instead of speed then that may work.. That's on my list of things to try

    Nice times!

    '89 RS Camaro, ITB Injected 3500 LX9, Custom cam, EQ-LT's, TD's/X piped, P&P'd top end, Built 700R4/4K stall, 3.73 posi rear, etc... 263 WHP/263 WTQ. 13.52 @ 99 so far... Still tuning..

  12. #41
    Project Sturmvögel WarShrike's Avatar
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    I vaguely remember somebody mentioning they setup a switch to override the computer and force the lockout. It'd need to be a good quality stall as mentione above though.

    And Dave, that ITB setup on your 3500 is freaking sweet.
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  13. #42
    Newbie Dave3500Z's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    I'm not familiar with OBD2 and it's abilities but on a OBD1 '7730 the same pin on the ECM is used for both the shift light and the TCC lockup, the bin file has a flag that you set either way. I was going to use that as a RPM dependent output to control mine.

    Yes, a stock converter would probably fry.

    '89 RS Camaro, ITB Injected 3500 LX9, Custom cam, EQ-LT's, TD's/X piped, P&P'd top end, Built 700R4/4K stall, 3.73 posi rear, etc... 263 WHP/263 WTQ. 13.52 @ 99 so far... Still tuning..

  14. #43
    Full Throttle Extreme! trb0355's Avatar
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    Only running 13's wont fry a stock converter. Like i said its got a carbon fiber lockup plate. It will hold at least 500 hp before it becomes a problem. Dig up some line prrssure flow charts and get an idea of how it works. The diameter of the plate vs the square inches of converter fluid pushing that thing on will hold a ton of torque. The pulse width modulated TCC apply might restrict the fluid path and make for a slower apply rate though and need modified.
    Last edited by trb0355; 10-15-2012 at 11:13 AM.

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  15. #44
    Contributing Sponsor LETZRIDE's Avatar
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    My converter isn't stock, it is a 3200 tci stall. From what I gather in my readings I have done this far is that you don't want to shock the converter by locking it up while already under WOT, if you are going to do it with something other than a multidisk clutch you need it engaged before you go WOT. The only way to really do this is to be on the dyno and lock it before pinning the throttle. If you lock it and pin it (like it would be at the track) you are asking for trouble.

    Circle D makes converters you can lock up under WOT

  16. #45
    Full Throttle Extreme! trb0355's Avatar
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    Naw it wont hurt it a bit. Its only a 13% speed difference it has to grab and it definitely wont engage hard enough to shock anything. Thats less RPM drop than an ordinary gear change. Its an aftermarket converter designed for the tranny so it definitely has a carbon fiber lockup plate. Buick guys have been locking em under wot for years without failure and they werent even the good plate. They do make multi disc units but that was to take care of cars making 500+ hp.

    Your nowhere near that and a single plate will grab and hold just fine. With a big cam and less midrange torque, just pick a RPM in 2nd gear a little before the 3rd shift to lock it. It will give the most benefit to have it lock in 2nd gear and help it top end a lot better thru all of 3rd. Thats how i used to do it and the timeslip doesnt lie. 2/10ths and 2 mph every time.

    Stromberger Performance
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    428 whp for 600 bucks and it keeps on running.

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